A proposal about classifying EE modules on the Vault

#1

I propose that EE should no longer be a separate game from NWN1. Instead, it should be a Requirements option for NWN1 modules (similar to the Expansions).

To achieve this

  1. the NWN1 module form should be modified so that the Requirements section (currently OC XP1 XP2) includes a checkbox for EE with a new dropdown field Minimum Game Version Required, taking the values 1.69 or EE initially, with scope to add new versions in future. (EDITED 09-May in the light of discussion below).

  2. EE should no longer appear as a separate game - modules classified that way should be transfered to the NWN1 game.

The reason for the proposal is that while NWN1 is widely regarded as the overarching game, modules are not currently classified that way on the Vault, leading to confusion for both authors and players.

The proposed method should make it very clear that a module will not work without EE.

Almost all NWN1 modules work under EE. The module description could be used if the module is certified for EE (but does not require it), or indeed if the module isn’t compatible with EE.

Clearly, there are other ways of looking at this, so I’d welcome comments and counter-proposals, before putting the question to a poll.

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Recommended nwn 1 mods?
#2

EE is a seperate game.

You can’t update 1.69 to EE as you would be able to with an expansion.
You have to rebuy, redownload and reinstall the game seperately.

And things might change even more with the new renderer and so on.
While old modules can be made compatible with some afford, they don’t necessarily allways are.
Especially in case of some scripts and custom content.

But … actually I don’t care…

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[solved] NWN no longer available? -- yes it still is
#3

I strongly support Proleric’s proposal. I think the reasons are clear and compelling, and he’s covered the basics. And speaking personally, I can’t say I’m happy with how the confusion has hurt visibility for my mod project. It doesn’t even show on the NWN1 list.

EE is designed to be backward compatible with NWN1 and is not a separate game. And it makes no difference whether you have to rebuy the game for EE. You had to buy XP1 and XP2, or the Platinum or Diamond editions, to get those expansions, too. EE should be treated the same way.

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#4

I agree with the proposal. It does the main thing we would need an additional classification to do - indicate which modules actually require EE - without introducing a lot of complications that are more trouble than they are worth.

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#5

I am big supporter of the proposal. When I look for new and updated Mods, any mods under the nwnee folder are not shown. To make it more confusing, if click EE, the list includes items under the nwn1 folder, which makes the list almost meaningless.

#6

All I need is a simple way to tell between Classic NWN (up to 1.69) and EE, so:

  1. If I want to browse NWN1 stuff that was made with EE, I click X
  2. If I want to browse NWN1 stuff that was made with Classic, I click Y
  3. If I want to browse NWN1 stuff that was made with EE or Classic, I click Z

This is therefore my proposal:

  1. Make EE a requirement instead of separate game, per @Proleric’s OP
  2. Remove OC, XP1 and XP2 requirements (read below)
  3. Add “Classic NWN” requirement in their place
  4. Reclassify everything non-EE as “Classic NWN”

This way we can browse both EE and non-EE content via NWN1 category. When we want to filter for specific “sub-game”, we choose specific requirement. Simple.

Rationale behind dropping OC/XP1/XP2: 1) pretty much everyone with classic NWN has Diamond, 2) these requirements are often misused, which just adds confusion.

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#7

@NWShacker As far as I can see, that’s compatible with my proposal, with two additional requirements:

  1. When searching NWN1 modules, add an optional filter for “EE only” or “not EE”

  2. Replace OC XP1 XP2 with Classic NWN

I don’t have a problem with either, but it might be wise to regard them as independent.

I can’t imagine why anyone would object to 1 (as long as @niv can confirm it’s technically feasible).

Although 2 seems like a no-brainer, too, it would involve changing all the modules in the Vault, and a trivial loss of information. I can imagine that some people might buy 1 but not 2?

#8

Is this not enough?

https://neverwintervault.org/catalog/nwnee

FP!

#9

FP: If you’re searching for EE, then yes. If you’re searching for NWN1, then no. Some projects that should show up under NWN1 as well as EE (like mine), don’t.

#10

Of course. I’d simply like to be able to filter for specific game (EE / Classic / both) when 1) searching for a project and 2) when browsing all projects, i.e. latest contributions. How this is done on the Vault really depends on how much code change is required. Which leads to the second point…

Perhaps another approach, then: rename OC to “Classic NWN” and make sure all projects (those who have XP1 and XP2 selected) also have it selected (per DB update, but a smaller one). This way we can filter for “any classic NWN” or “specific NWN expansion” (plus separate EE of course).

However, there is another problem with the requirements project field in the fact that it’s a checklist:

requirements
I can choose OC and XP2, leaving XP1 out. It makes no sense. Or in theory I could choose both “Classic” and “EE”, which is going to break the sub-game filter.

Corollary: the requirement field could be a dropdown list, just like game or category. Wouldn’t that also turn it into a search filter? Two birds - one stone.

#11

That list illustrates perfectly how the current classification is very misleading. There are all sorts of works there which don’t appear to require EE, judging by their URLs and page content. Just to take one example, to the best of my knowledge, the PHoD Greece hak has no dependency on EE, or, if it does, there’s nothing on the page to say so.

Did you follow the link on the word “confusion” above? This all started because the NWN1 module lists which I’ve been using to promote the Vault to Beamdog and Steam players isn’t picking up EE works when it should.

#12

@NWShacker I’m reluctant to make the change too complicated, unless @niv says it’s easy to do.

The searches you need could be met simply by examining the EE checkbox in my proposal - Classic Only = EE not checked, EE only = EE checked, both = no filter.

I’m not clear what we gain by changing the OC XP1 XP2 checkboxes. What you’re saying is logical, but experience suggests that “if it ain’t bust, don’t fix it”?

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#13

Selecting the Neverwinter Nights:EE TAB will now only give hit results for EE based on the authors selection when creating the projection via the Game selection made. The original search query was including NWN1.

Making it not a seperate game from NWN1 and making it part of the Requirements, is not anything I can do easily until I have more time to sit down and experiment with the options.

FP!

#14

FP: If the author selects NWN1 instead of EE, then does the project show up on the EE list as well? If not, then we still have the same problem. If it does, then listing projects under NWN1 might be a temporary workaround. It would suggest that there’s something oddly asymmetrical going on in the search results. This does seem to be happening in some cases anyway (for example, Swordflight), so perhaps that’s the explanation.

But that would make the EE tag next to useless and misleading, since it would really mean that a project only works for EE. And I don’t think that’s how people would/do use it. If they have EE, most people are going to look for an EE tag to tell them that this is a project they can play with EE.

The real problem, I think, stems from the decision to list EE as a separate game. The game tag carries the implicit assumption that a project can be for only one game — e.g., the same mod can’t be both for NWN1 and NWN2. But that’s not true for NWN1 and EE. That’s one reason why agree with Proleric that this really should be fixed if it can.

#15

I am unable to modify the Requirements field (OC, Xp1, Xp2) to either remove or add to it.

This would require attention from niv to resolve, recreate, or modify from within the database from the sounds of the message.

FP!

#16

Am I missing something or currently there is no way to search for content with specific requirement other than, say, following OC link: https://neverwintervault.org/expansions/oc to browse all “OC” content? How does one “examine the EE checkbox”? Or XP2 checkbox.

EDIT BELOW THIS LINE

How about adding a new dropdown selector like Category or Game:

requirements
It could contain two values: Classic and Enhanced. Database modification would only require filling the new fields, no alterations. Would this satisfy @Proleric?

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#17

@NWShacker @Fester_Pot I made the original proposal after discussion with @niv. We agreed that I would sound out community opinion. Implicitly, @niv would then be asked to make some changes, though clearly @niv can’t comment on feasibility until we know what we want.

So, I’m assuming we can ask for things that @Fester_Pot can’t configure.

In the light of @NWShacker’s comment, perhaps it’s clearer to introduce an entirely new field, EE Required (Yes / No) - leaving the existing Requirements check boxes exactly as they are now.

In addition to the new field, we will also need to change the search filter. It ought to default to finding all modules, with the option to filter on only those that require EE, or those that don’t require EE.

To reiterate, since older modules run on all versions, but EE modules only run on EE, we don’t want to put players off the older modules by branding them as “not EE” in some way. For that reason, I’d prefer not to invent a new term like NWN Classic, which no one has used until now, and might not mean anything to casual visitors.

What do people think?

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#18

Sure, but I’d say “Classic” is a fitting umbrella term for “anything non-EE” (though YMMV). If we keep using it, eventually it will stick. But just my last 2c: be ready for influx of confused users who’ll look for “NWN2:EE” since the Vault interface makes no difference between the games other than via Game field :slightly_smiling_face:.

#19

First, thanks for raising this topic, so we can get a final community decision on NWN:EE Vault content categorization. Especially because NWN:EE (as the only currently supported product) should continue to evolve, having the Vault keep up with new content and displaying it properly will be very helpful.

I’ve thought that the terms NWN1, NWN2, and NWN:EE have been largely self-explanatory, although it’s not necessarily been how everybody refers to NWN1. NWN Diamond (as a product) has been another popular and valid way to refer to NWN1, but it’s no longer sold - except currently as an add-on to NWN:EE at GoG. So I’d suggest going with the 1/2/EE designators.

About the old NWN expansion categories for content - I don’t believe they’re really relevant today, since nobody has a copy of vanilla NWN pre-SoU that actually runs. (Or even if they do - I have my original discs - they wouldn’t want to try to run it.) So maybe we can just reduce legacy references to the expansions and fold everything into NWN1.

I don’t think there’s much actual confusion about NWN:EE being able to run NWN1 mods, although it would probably be a good thing to have that fact displayed as a one-liner banner on the site on appropriate pages.

Whatever solution is reached, people will need to be able to distinguish EE-only projects from NWN1 ones. The need for hard-coded new categories is not a new phenomenon for the Vault (although it is for this incarnation), given the staggered publication of previous NWN expansions and the release of NWN2. Sometimes mod authors have created separate pages for materially different project versions and then linked them in the descriptions, although not everyone likes to do that.

The current setup is primarily a problem for contributors who want to include both EE and NWN1 content versions on the same project page and have the Vault reflect this in an automated fashion. I expect that I’ll encounter the same issue myself once the DMFI 101 mod is updated for EE (which is still pending me actually doing this). As long as a consensus solution is relatively clear and highlights new EE products in a fair way, I’ll certainly support it.

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#20

@Carlo - I’m not clear what you’re proposing?

I can’t agree that NWN1 is generally understood to mean Diamond Edition and its precursors. On the contrary, NWN1 is widely understood to mean the over-arching game, of which EE and Diamond are subsidiary editions.

@NWShacker is right to imply that EE can only be an option for NWN1, as there is no NWN2 EE.

Leaving the current classification as is doesn’t address the misinformation problem raised in the other thread, namely, that EE-only modules are being excluded from module lists, and that older modules are turning up in EE-only lists (to the surprise of their authors, including myself).