Food for thought


#1

I’d like to draw everyone’s attention for a moment so that we may discuss something. It’s about something Kelemvor says to us before we go reclaim our soul, and he says it specifically if we went with the Crusade. I’ll give you all a chance to guess what it was, since I wanna see if anybody else noticed it. Believe me when I tell you that if you noticed it, you’ll know it’s what I’m talking about. After three failed tries or so, I’ll tell so that we may discuss proper.


#2

Could’ve just said you don’t wanna guess instead of giving me the silent treatment. So here’s the line that has me thinking.

Until you find a way to battle a god in his own realm, the Wall of the Faithless will stand. You are not that strong, not yet.

I specifically want to draw attention to the last sentence.

You are not that strong, not yet.

… Am I the only one that sees what he’s implying?


#3

I don’t know how familiar you are with Forgotten Realms lore, but several of the gods, including the one you are talking to, were once mortals that ascended via the replacement of other gods. Kelemvor and Mystra are the examples that spring to mind but there may be others.

Do consider though that Kelemvor is a more benevolent god of the dead than the Realms have had in the past and yet the wall remains. I suspect even were you to become the new god of the dead you would find removing the wall would require Io’s blessing and take winning a war with the evil and maybe neutral gods without the help of many, if any, of the good ones.

Because gods derive power from worship and disbelief is their mortal enemy.

As to lack of response, it may be that forum goers have looked at how civil you were with people actively trying to help you and are reluctant to engage, assuming you would treat those you don’t need worse. A discussion often leads to different viewpoints and most are only willing to discuss if they have faith it won’t devolve into an argument.

Just give it some time. Helping others out here might also go a long way.

Just my two cents.


#4

Yes I realize that Kelemvor, Mystra, the Dead Three and many other gods were once mortals, but more importantly, his wording implies that he actually expects the KC to become powerful enough to take down the Wall, maybe even become as powerful as the gods themselves, which is even more backed up by him calling us one of the most powerful mortals in the Prime in another piece of dialogue. That says a lot and actually gives room for our imagination for what we’d think each of our KCs would do after the events of the game.

Specifically if we didn’t pick that ending.


#5

I only played through MotB while I was developing the MotB Makeover, so I never paid too much attention to the story, only the mechanics. I prefer lower level adventures where you are excited to get a +1 weapon that glows, rather than melee combat with gods. So my silence is only an indicator that I don’t have much to say on it. I guess they left it open-ended for future epic adventures.


#6

Well I’ll just come out and say it. The wording “implies” that the people working on MoTB thought they were still going to have jobs up to level 60. Didn’t turn out that way.

Presumably new software would have been added to do the things you are attempting to do without access to the source code. Time to face the fact that if this was easy, it would have been done years ago.

What the good folks here are doing is to drag decade old technology into 2019. Mostly they do it with patience and hard work and by cooperating with each other to tease out the complicated bits.


#7

… You never genuinely played MotB?


#8

… I don’t see your point. I don’t see how the people working on the game have anything to do with this.


#9

I hadn’t gotten around to playing MotB yet when SoZ came out. I found the OC irritating to play and so started modding and developed my Silverwand Sample Campaign to help other struggling modders with their own campaigns. With SoZ released I developed King’s Festival and learned how to take advantage of several SoZ features in a campaign. While discussing that on the old boards it was suggested that the OC would be improved by a better death system and the SoZ party editor and I quickly responded that I didn’t think it would be too hard to do that. So with several people egging me on I did that and released the OC Makeover. Within days I was asked if I could do the same for MotB. I hadn’t played MotB but I agreed to try. That led to people asking for other improvements, so the MotB Makeover ended up being far more involved than the OC Makeover had been. In order to develop and test quickly I sprinted through the MotB campaign with an overpowered group. So I sort of shorted my own potential enjoyment of playing it in as a result of developing the MotB Makeover.

Regards


#10

#11

I recall a post from an OEI employee way back on the BioWare boards, that the epic levels were set up the way they were due to a decision by WotC, not OEI. They wanted to test continued progression to level 30 for the then upcoming 4th edition, instead of the 3.0 implementation of epic levels (with epic AB bonuses, epic save progression, etc.). There never was a plan to expand the levels to 40 because, even at level 30, it was getting hard to balance things like the increasing AB gap.

That said Kelemvor did try to do away with the Wall of the Faithless (Description of events from wiki). Using some of the most moronic reasoning ever put forth by D&D authors, Kelemvor ended up reinstating it. I think it’s gone now in 5th edition, but I haven’t really kept up on D&D lore.


#12

The wall of the faithless did not exist in the forgotten realms from 1987 when it became part of d&d until 2002. The whole concept was crap from the beginning in my opinion. Myrkul was a spiteful god that someone decided to take it to the extreme. You try to correct crap it is still crap. I as a DM never used it and still do not. That is my two cents anyway.


#13

While we all can agree the the Wall is pretty much evil and shouldn’t exist, his reasoning isn’t flawed. It simply assumes the gods are necessary and must be worshipped, and in the Forgotten Realms, that’s one big debate. But assuming he’s correct, which he most certainly thinks he is, then the Wall is indeed necessary, a necessary evil he calls it. So of course, when he just rose to divinity, he’d try to take it down before being made to realize he’s having a moral perspective instead of a divine one, and there’s nothing human about being a god.

And yes, the Wall still exists in the fifth edition. I checked like, last week.

Also, I hardly believe it’d be too hard to just let the stats rise as they always did.


#14

Pretty sure Myrkul was always spiteful, cruel and evil. The Wall seems very much like him, especially since he’d do anything just to stay alive, and the Wall would be his final trump card, defended by the notion of divine existence necessary for the Realms. And you’d only use it if Kelemvor had any involvement in the campaign.


#15

At one point Ao decreed that the power level of the gods would be tied to the number of followers they have. If no one follows a god, the god becomes very weak and feeble (like Amanautor before Thultanthar reappeared in 4th edition). As such, having an incentive for mortals to follow the gods is a good thing. However the implementation is flawed. With the Wall of the Faithless, souls that are judged faithless or false are slowly and painfully digested by the wall. If you’re a stillborn baby, you’re faithless and end up in the wall. However, Demons and Devils are allowed to make pacts with the souls and the souls become Demons or Devils; weak ones (IIRC, lemures), but ones who can work their way up the ranks. So if you’re faithless, your choice is oblivion or soldier of hell. Note, if you’re follower of an evil god, you’ll end up in their realm which is going to be located in the Abyss or Hell, so really there’s no reason to follow an evil god, because you’ll end up in the same place and probably get the same treatment (It’s not like Cyric is giving his followers foot massages in hell).

Now special K becomes the god of the dead. He decides that the Wall of the Faithless is an abomination and decides to get rid of it. Instead, he will judge the souls of the Faithless and send them either to the better parts or worse parts of his city on the Fugue plane. So evil people are living cautious lives because they don’t want to die and go to the hellish parts of K’s city (which makes no sense, because it’s the same as the Hell/Abyss or Oblivion they would have been going to before). Meanwhile, good people are martyring themselves and committing suicide to get into K’s heaven (again, as long as they’re following a good god, they’ll end up in their god’s heaven anyway so nothing has really changed except for the good faithless souls who would choose oblivion over become demons). So instead of doing something sensible, like reinstating the wall for suicides (or just reincarnating them), K goes back to the Wall of the Faithless and souls making deals with demons, because he can’t think of anything better.

As for why the power gap matters in a video game, as a module maker you have to balance encounters for all characters that could play your module. If we just consider AB/AC. We have to balance the encounter for pure Monk as well as the pure Fighter (it’s complicated further by multiclassing and abilities like HiPS and Feint, but let’s keep things simple for now). At level 20 there’s a 5 point difference in BAB between the two of them. That’s manageable. At level 40 there’s a 10 point difference in BAB between the two of them (that’s the same difference that exists between a Wizard and a Fighter at level 20). Either you balance for the Monk and the Fighter walks all over the encounter, or you balance for the Fighter and the Monk is toast. The 3.0 epic rules kept AB progression the same for all the classes to the gap stops growing (or slows). But you just can’t maintain normal progression forever if you only have 20 points of variation in your die.


#16

keep in mind that i am quoting from memory, but i think your description doesn’t fit the lore and therefore appears to be flawed. the souls of the dead enter the fugue plane, which is the realm of kelemvor, and are naturally drawn to city of judgement. after death you wake in the middle of nowhere and there’s only dull greyness all around. wherever you are, there’s always the crytsal spire at the horizon, acting as a beacon.

after passing the gates kelemvor speaks judgement and the soul is either granted a ten day stay or bound to the wall. once in the city you wait for servants of the god you followed to guide you to his realm, or bargain with demons to enter the ranks. sometimes demons also raid the city to steal souls.

the faithless have no choice but to slowly dissolve into nothingness. their only hope is that a demon or some other powerful entity rips them out to pick up what is left.


#17

You seem to be very misinformed. Let me correct you.

First off, not all evil gods are based in the Lower Planes, where the Abyss and Baator (the Nine Hells) exist, in which baatezu (devils) and tanar’ri (demons) dwell. Shar, for instance, the oldest and first evil god in the Faerunian pantheon, used to be in the Plane Of Shadow before turning it into the Shadowfell. Then there’s Cyric, whose realm is the Supreme Throne, which exists in Limbo, where the githzerai dwell. And there’s Malar, who dwells in Fury’s Heart, a fiendish plane but not among the Lower Planes. So if you follow an evil god, you don’t necessarily go to the Abyss or Baator. If you follow gods like Umberlee and Tiamat, sure, since they live down there, but not every evil god is there, ironically enough.

Second, fiends can’t take souls from the Wall unless they steal them directly by raiding the Wall, which as we know is easier than it sounds. Demons are the only ones who’d try, whilst devils would instead tempt other souls into their service due to them being easier to get. They usually work on souls that haven’t yet been claimed by their patron and see if they can get them to choose a different fate than going to their god’s realm.

Third, the False aren’t sent to the Wall but serve in the City Of Judgment as guards and militia and such. Don’t know how you messed that one up, as we meet some of them at the Supplicants’ Gate. Now I don’t know if baatezu can tempt them into making pacts with them, but I’ll assume no, since they’re pretty much Kelemvor’s lesser followers.

Fourth, Kelemvor didn’t just go back to the Wall. A while after revoking its status as the fate of the Faithless, he and Mystra - who was also prejudiced in whom to grant magic based on good and evil - were exposed by Cyric and summoned by the Circle Of Greater Powers (the members of which are all greater deities in the Forgotten Realms) and accused of “incompetence by humanity”. That gradually formed a revelation to Kelemvor in how unfair his judgment was being and made him realize there was nothing human in being a god. For that reason, he reinstated the Wall and went back to making deals with devils and treating all Faithless equally, condemning them to the Wall. He also changed his entire appearance to what we know now in the game.

Not saying what he’s doing is right. Just that it’s not what you think and it strictly follows his alignment.

Also, why not just have Monks’ BAB raise higher on such high levels? BAB advancement shouldn’t be so strictly followed when they’re made to use different weapons. 'Sides, expert martial artists should be able to hit as well, if not better, than armed warriors.


#18

First off, not all evil gods are based in the Lower Planes, where the Abyss and Baator (the Nine Hells) exist, in which baatezu (devils) and tanar’ri (demons) dwell. Shar, for instance, the oldest and first evil god in the Faerunian pantheon, used to be in the Plane Of Shadow before turning it into the Shadowfell. Then there’s Cyric, whose realm is the Supreme Throne, which exists in Limbo, where the githzerai dwell. And there’s Malar, who dwells in Fury’s Heart, a fiendish plane but not among the Lower Planes. So if you follow an evil god, you don’t necessarily go to the Abyss or Baator. If you follow gods like Umberlee and Tiamat, sure, since they live down there, but not every evil god is there, ironically enough.

Fine, then the servants of most of the evil gods will end up in the Abyss or the Hells. Those who don’t will end up somewhere similarly unpleasant.

Second, fiends can’t take souls from the Wall unless they steal them directly by raiding the Wall, which as we know is easier than it sounds. Demons are the only ones who’d try, whilst devils would instead tempt other souls into their service due to them being easier to get. They usually work on souls that haven’t yet been claimed by their patron and see if they can get them to choose a different fate than going to their god’s realm.

Yes, but they can work on souls who are in line waiting to be judged. I assume a soul has a good idea of where it’s headed before the judgement, and can look for a deal. Once you’re in the wall, there’s only the raids, but there’s a window between death and judgement.

Third, the False aren’t sent to the Wall but serve in the City Of Judgment as guards and militia and such. Don’t know how you messed that one up, as we meet some of them at the Supplicants’ Gate. Now I don’t know if baatezu can tempt them into making pacts with them, but I’ll assume no, since they’re pretty much Kelemvor’s lesser followers.

Incorrect, they aren’t sent to the wall (my bad on that one), they are eternally punished at Kelemvor’s discretion. That could be something like escorting souls to the wall, or it could be far worse. At the very least, I assume K wouldn’t want any of them armed.

Fourth, Kelemvor didn’t just go back to the Wall. A while after revoking its status as the fate of the Faithless, he and Mystra - who was also prejudiced in whom to grant magic based on good and evil - were exposed by Cyric and summoned by the Circle Of Greater Powers (the members of which are all greater deities in the Forgotten Realms) and accused of “incompetence by humanity”. That gradually formed a revelation to Kelemvor in how unfair his judgment was being and made him realize there was nothing human in being a god. For that reason, he reinstated the Wall and went back to making deals with devils and treating all Faithless equally, condemning them to the Wall. He also changed his entire appearance to what we know now in the game.

Yeah, and the whole “incompetence by humanity.” judgement makes no sense, because his actions weren’t unfair (It’s basically the same as what happens to souls in Planescape). The consequences of his actions, as decided by the FR authors, made no logical sense. Nor does it explain why he felt like returning to the wall was the only possible alternative and he never bothered to look for other solutions. The FR authors could have just had Ao make a decision that the wall stays, instead of the BS “incompetence by humanity.” He’s basically an example of try something once, and when it doesn’t work go back to the way things were and never try again. I’m not saying the decision wasn’t consistent with a LN alignment, I’m saying it was a bad decision to make.

Also, why not just have Monks’ BAB raise higher on such high levels? BAB advancement shouldn’t be so strictly followed when they’re made to use different weapons. 'Sides, expert martial artists should be able to hit as well, if not better, than armed warriors.

Then you’re going back to the 3.0 Epic rules. The point is if you keep pre-epic progression into epic levels, then you have to cap level progression lower because of things like the AB gap. Once WotC made the decision to keep the pre-epic progression OEI was locked into it.


#19

This is just me nitpicking, but incorrect. The number of evil gods in the Forgotten Realms is 93, all either active, dead or stepped down, and there’s only 32 of them that have ever or still are based in the Abyss or Nine Hells.

And it may be unpleasant for you and me, but for them, it’s basically paradise, because they willingly followed a god of evil, so clearly they’re deranged enough to consider their realm to be paradise. Take Qara, for instance. She follows Kossuth, the primordial of elemental fire. If his domain fits his title, obviously she’d love it there. That’s the point of there being so many gods: everyone has their own personal heaven.

That’s assuming that the souls don’t instantly get thrown into the Wall the moment they spawn in the Fugue Plane. We’re both assuming here, so it’s best not to dwell on this.

Depends on the severity of their crime, as the page says. I’m basing most of my knowledge on our experience with the City Of Judgment and also on any other lore I can find.

Think of it from his perspective. He’s the god of the dead, and he has to make sure anyone that doesn’t have a deity to claim them gets treated fairly. For the False, we already know how they fare. For the Faithless, well if they had nothing to fear, then they’d have no reason to follow the gods besides some spells and powers, and that’d reduce the numbers of worshippers to all gods significantly when they realize they don’t have to follow gods to go to their own heaven and can instead let Kelemvor give them pleasant lives if they’re good. What other solutions are there? He needs to have a horrifying punishment that makes any mortals that know and believe in it choose to worship whichever god they prefer. From his point of view, he thinks that the gods are necessary for the order of the planes, and that without them, the realms will descend to chaos, or by his own words, “Bring down the Wall, and mortals will see that they cannot be held to account for their faith. On that day, mortals will put faith aside. And the gods will bring vengeance upon them all”.

You’re not supposed to agree with his point of view. You’re just supposed to understand why he does it. There’s no better solution to the problem he saw. He needs the most horrific fate possible, and the Wall was it. The necessary evil was prepared for him.

And Ao is just there to make sure the gods do their job, not do it the way he sees fit. They screw up and keep screwing up, he shows up and tells them to knock it off, but he doesn’t tell them how to do their job.

I don’t follow.


#20

I like the way this is going, nice and civil conversation. Lets all keep it that way. :ok_hand::+1: