Multi-Player Party Size Issue (Includes POLL-CLOSED)

[Lance_Botelle]

I have come up against an issue with respect to a party size (when including associates) when accommodating a MP game. This has gone under the radar until recent module two testing.

A little while back, I discovered a party size more than ten was preventing an area from loading in a MP game. Now, I have discovered that a party size more than nine (at a push ten) can cause doors from not opening and creature deaths fail to leave lootable corpses.

In previous testing, my wife has played large party numbers in a SP game and this works fine. However, this is the first time we are trying a MP environment where her PCs are higher level, and where the higher level summons and companions are surviving longer… meaning there is more likelihood of ten or more surviving a battle. In a SP game, this is not a problem, but, as I say, this causes issues mentioned above in a MP game. This issue has been confirmed on two computers, one running Windows 10 and another Windows 11.

So, I am looking for player feedback to help with how best to proceed. At the moment, I unsummon associates between area transfers, which fixes the area load issue. However, I am not sure how players would like me to handle the associates in a MP game with respect to the latest door/body loot issue. Here are the options as far as I can see… (unless someone has a solution to this problem)…

1. Automatically limit the total number of associates in a MP game. E.g. If a player casts a summons and the party already has nine members, it fails to summon. i.e. Another summon or companion must be dismissed first. (My preferred option at the moment.)

2. Allow “unlimited” summoning during battle, but un-summon creatures after a battle to allow loot to appear and doors to open again. To clarify the door situation, it may “open” but not show in-game, as creatures (other than the main PC) can go through. This can be confusing and spoils the immersion, I believe.

There is also something else to consider in either case… Do I also…

No longer have henchmen in a MP game to allow more headroom for PC associates, or let the player determine their combination of associates? Bearing in mind that the players can have one less associate of their own for each henchman in the party. I am erring towards “no henchmen” in a MP game at the moment. An example of a henchman is “Scraps”, the dog, or “Sebastion”, the Empire Guardian.

Any thoughts from yourselves appreciated.

• Limit Maximum associates to nine. (Allow henchmen.)
• Allow unlimited and remove after combat. (Allow henchmen.)
• Limit Maximum associates to nine. (No henchmen.)
• Allow unlimited and remove after combat. (No henchmen.)

As I say, if you have any other thoughts or ideas how to manage this issue with a MP game, please advise.

[raymondsebas]

I would limit any party composition to a maximum of 6 members maximum, whether they are players or « recruitable companions ».

[Dustin_Offal]

I would prefer to lose the henchman option and use just companions, since they are “full characters” in that they level up, can be controlled more thoroughly by the players, etc.

I’m sort of torn between that and the limit of total associates to nine, and allowing them to be a mix of companions and henchmen. That seems more complicated to manage (script) though.

Other questions occur to me: what is a familiar, a special type of henchman? Does a familiar or druid’s animal companion count as a creature towards the total of nine possible creatures in play?

[Lance_Botelle]

@raymondsebas

I currently already do this, but the problem is if the player then has at least one or two PCs that can have the following associates:-

• Animal Companion.
• Summoned Creature.
• Familiar.

If the player has only 2 of the six PCs able to summon the above, and each has them all out at once, then we have 2 x 3 = 6 associates, plus the original PCs = 12. That is even before we add any henchmen they may have picked up.

@Dustin_Offal

That’s my current thinking too.

A familiar is another type of associate the PC can have. (See the list above.) I also allow “henchmen” as a fourth type of associate in my campaign. Furthermore, it is possible (in some circumstances), where a henchmen is required as part of the plot (so I will have to accommodate that somehow). Also, I currently have an item that even allows two more “associates” (special henchmen) that can be added to this list. They will also need managing.

So, in brief, yes, any creature added alongside a players list of PCs is considered an associate of one of the four types possible.

EDIT: I am going to fire up a “proper” MP environment to see if the game handles these figures differently if another player is actively involved. Currently, these figures/tests have been based on a single player in a MP environment. Perhaps the game re-organises resources when other players are actively connected?

Thanks to everyone who has voted to date.

[raymondsebas]

Can’t you limit the number of allies (summoned or recruitable) by the number of players in the party, and limit them by class?
For example, you can’t have 6 mages in a team. Each player must have a different “class group” (divine, fighter, spellcaster, etc.).

Generate a recruitable class (NPC) based on the composition of the group. Do not create another recruitable spellcaster if there is already one in the group, etc.

[Lance_Botelle]

@raymondsebas

That’s probably not going to solve the issue.

It only takes one wiz and one druid to have all their associates out (in a party of six) to have a total of:-

6 PCs
2 summons (Both can.)
1 animal companion (Druid.)
1 Familiar. (Wizard.)

Total of ten … before any henchmen involved.

[Dustin_Offal]

I am going to fire up a “proper” MP environment to see if the game handles these figures differently if another player is actively involved.

That was my next thought. Perhaps with multiple players who each manage several associates, it will be stable.

Then it becomes a question of how many associates each player can have I suppose. Oh well, we shall burn that bridge when we get to it!

[Lance_Botelle]

@Dustin_Offal

That was my next thought. Perhaps with multiple players who each manage several associates, it will be stable.

@Dustin_Offal

OK, after finally restoring my computer to a working 23H2 environment where I could alt-tab between toolset and game, I eventually got to testing this … Unfortunately, even with two players in the MP game, the creatures still did not drop their loot and doors would not open until I un-summoned enough associates to bring the party size to below ten.

So, I am now going to have to make an executive decision on this and write the code to accommodate, I guess.

I see from the poll that players seem to want the maximum set to nine, but the option to allow henchmen as part of that mix is split roughly the same (especially if you exclude my own vote).

If players recognise the fact that the limit is nine, then I suppose I can leave it up to them how they choose to make up the party. It will mean a higher likelihood of a summons (of any type) not being allowed if the party is close to full, but that is just how it is for MP by the looks of it.

I do wonder how persistent worlds handle this then? I suppose they use the dedicated server system rather than the in-game option, which may give more headroom.

Oh well, it is what it is, and I suppose it is not unreasonable to limit a party size to nine in a MP environment, as that will be quite a large party anyway. And if players decide to only play with four PCs (rather than a potential maximum of six), then that also opens up some leeway for associates.

I’ll leave the poll running for a few more days, just in case someone has some extra info about it all.

[Dustin_Offal]

Sure sounds like a lot of scripting, no matter how you slice it!

[Lance_Botelle]

@Dustin_Offal , @raymondsebas (and others following)…

In further multi-player testing, there have been some other minor issues come to light with respect to some aspects of gameplay when controlling a large party (nine plus in size). These issues demonstrate that a MP environment requires more resources in general to ensure smooth play. As an example, in my campaign, I turn looted objects to no longer being “useable” after being fully looted to indicate they are finished with. However, in a MP game, the “Z” key can sometimes still show them as objects that can be “interacted” with, even though they cannot be. A save and reload updates this erroneous interaction state: a “Z” press no longer shows them as such objects. I believe this may also be a result of the large party size.

However, I am concerned that these minor “glitches” for a large party may spill over into something “critical” for the gameplay rather than just being a cosmetic issue. The “door” animation and accessibility I mention in my first post is a good example where it affects gameplay adversely.

Therefore, having also slept on the issue, I am leaning towards the following for a multi-player game. (The SP game remains unchanged for the time being.):-

1. Limit party size to a maximum of nine members at any one time. This means if a PC tries to summon another creature, or call up an animal companion or summon their familiar, when the party size is already at nine, then a notice text warning will be given that the maximum party size has already been reached and the summoning will fail.

2. Henchmen will be allowed, and take priority. I decided to leave the option of using a henchmen or not to the player, as the party maximum size will still apply and the player can manage their party as they feel best. I only allow a maximum of two henchmen at a time anyway, unless their is a NPC type that joins the party temporarily. Any henchmen added though, by choice or as an NPC, reduce the overall number of other associates the party can have. This may change if further testing raises any issues with this choice.

NOTE THE FOLLOWING:

• A) If the “un-summoned” creature is an animal companion or a familiar, then the PC will have their number of feat uses restored. However, If it was a summons spell, then the spell will be LOST!

• B) I am aiming to turn off all AI automatic summoning to prevent a waste of a spell when using AI. The Character Sheet will reflect this for a MP game. (See image below.)

• C) The AI Auto-Summon Animal Companions and Familiars will also be disabled for a MP game in the same way.

• D) As it stands, a PC may possibly still use a feat that could affect the party size. At the moment, I am NOT disabling this as an AI option, but note the final point.

3. All summons will un-summon after any combat. This includes any and all associates apart from henchmen. However, if the un-summon affects a familiar or an animal companion, the PC will be granted another summon feat upon its unsummoning, with any usual delays required prior re-summoning. This is to ensure any lootable creatures and doors, etc, correctly update after a combat. This really only affects the summon spells that summon creatures, which are mainly used for combat anyway. No combat, no summons.

IMPORTANT: I am updating the code now, and so if you have anything to add that you believe I need to consider, then please let me know.

[Lance_Botelle]

Hi All,

I have closed the poll to further voting now and am doing the following for a MP game (This does not have any bearing to a SP game, which remains unchanged)…

• A) Limiting party size to nine outside of combat.
• B) Party size can be higher during combat, but all are removed after combat.
• C) Any removals will have the feat usage restored, but spells are not.
• D) AI is turned off regarding any auto-summoning spells.
• E) Henchmen remain as “priority” associates and are never removed. (*)

(*) Therefore, a player can decide to either have the maximum of two henchmen or not have any to allow more room for associates in the party instead.

NB: “Henchmen” are not the same as “companions”. Henchmen are party “associates” whose inventory cannot be accessed, much like Animal Companions, Familiars and summoned creatures of any type.

EXAMPLE: A MP game with two players controlling their Main PC and, perhaps, one other companion, making a total party of four, can continue to add up to two other companions (as six companions is the maximum the campaign can have), plus another three associate types.

The remaining three associates can be made up from:-

• A) Henchmen (Maximum two allowed in a party.)
• B) Animal Companions.
• C) Familiars.
• D) A Summoned creature via item or spell.

REMINDER: This limit is “unlocked” during combat, so is only a limit outside of combat. Therefore, if both players wish to have a familiar out during normal gameplay (outside of combat), it may be prudent not to take on any henchmen.

Hopefully, that guidance makes sense as to the steps I have taken.