Nwn2fixes

[DerpCity]

@kevL_s

well, for example, how is the +1 per casterlevel in

damage = d4(casterlevel) + 1 per casterlevel

different from

targets = 1 per casterlevel

You’re thinking of your “damage” variable there as being two different variables for the purposes of Empowered Spell, that being “d4(casterlevel)” and “1 per casterlevel”. However, my reading based on the example provided by Empowered Spell is that they are all one instance of damage:

@Lance_Botelle

For example, an empowered magic missile deals one and one-half times normal damage (roll 1d4 + 1 and multiply the result by 1.5 for each missile).

If they wanted you to consider the 1d4 and the 1 separately, then they would have worded it along the lines of “roll 1d4 and multiply the result by 1.5 then add 1”. Thus, the spell is considered to have 2-5 damage for the purposes of Empowered Spell, not 1d4 and a separate additional 1, which is congruent to the fact that it is one instance of damage for the purposes of Damage Immunity, Resistance and Reduction.

@kevL_s

question: is casterlevel variable?

option1: no because it remains constant throughout the script
option2: yes because it varies depending on the level of the caster

if casterlevel is not variable and is added to a diceroll, does it become variable?

I believe it is option 1 and that it becomes variable when added to a dice roll, since it becomes part of a random component.

As I stated in my previous post, if Caster Level was considered variable then Magic Missile would shoot more missiles on tabletop due to having a variable amount of missiles based on your level which (on tabletop) influences its number of targets, yet despite it being the example spell of choice for Empowered Spell and thus providing an opportunity to do so, nothing is said about it.

Thus, my conclusion is that “Variable” must mean “Random”, which I think is congruent with the fact that the spell later goes on to say that Empower Spell does nothing to a spell that lacks random components.

@kevL_s

I’d have to hunt but offhand id say that there are spells (scripts) that don’t empower a so-called constant value that is added to a random value (eg. the Augment Healing bonus in cure scripts, if i recall …)

I believe there are, as I recall seeing one just the other day while looking over how spell scripts are written while backporting Creeping Cold into Neverwinter Nights 1 for fun. However, to suggest this means they aren’t supposed to be empowered because of this would ignore both the fact that there are probably just as many (if not more, though someone would have to count) scripts that do empower the constant, and the fact that it is unlikely that every spell was written by the same person and thus is subject to differing implementations, either by mistake or even just differing interpretation if Axe_Edge is accurate in saying this is a 23 year old debate.

I would also say your example of Augment Healing being one of these cases is not one to rely on. Ignoring how there could be an entirely different argument about whether Augment Healing would be applied before or after the effects of Metamagic (Based on the wording of the tabletop version of the feat from the Complete Divine book I think it would be applied before), it could also simply be an order of operations error in the scripts that they just didn’t think too hard about when implementing a rather niche feat.

[Axe_Edge]

I’m posting the following, just so I don’t lose it.

From Wizards, 2003:

Metamagic Feats

Can you add a metamagic feat more than once to any particular spell? For example, double Maximize Spell, or double Extend Spell?

You can apply most metamagic feats more than once. Just stack up the costs and remember to apply the additional effects to the basic spell. For example, if you extend a spell twice, you get 3 times the duration, not 4 times the duration. (Each
6/27/03extension adds 100% of the spell’s base duration.)

There are a few metamagic feats that are constructed so as to make stacking worthless or pointless. You cannot, for example, get more than maximum damage out of a spell by maximizing the spell more than once. (If you want to send the spell’s damage through the roof, use Empower Spell multiple times.) Heighten Spell already allows you set the spell’s effective level anywhere you want (and can manage), so there’s no point in applying the feat more than once.

When a sorcerer or bard uses a metamagic feat, it requires a full round action, or an extra full round action if the spell already required a full round action. However, what if a bard or sorcerer used two or more metamagic feats on a single spell? Does the delay keep stacking and make the spell go off several rounds later, or is this penalty for any number of metamagic feats used in a round?

No, the delay is for one or more metamagic feats applied to a single spell, not for each metamagic feat applied to a spell.

Can I use Empower Spell to make a wand of magic missile with a caster level of 1 because it’s still “really” a 1st-level spell, for a cost of 3×1×750 (effective spell level 3, caster level 1, wand multiplier), or does it need to be level 5, because that’s the lowest level at which I can cast any 3rdlevel spell?

It’s the latter. A magic missile spell that takes advantage of the Empower Spell feat is “really” just a 1st-level spell, but you have to be at least 5th level to cast it (if you’re a wizard) because any spell that uses the Empower Spell feat requires a spell slot two levels higher than normal. You have to use the higher, metamagiced level to calculate the wand’s price, and you have to increase the wand’s caster level accordingly. The example wand’s market price is 11,250 gp (3×5×750). For that price, you get a wand that produces 3 magic missiles (a 5thlevel caster creates 3 missiles with a magic missile spell), each dealing 1d4+1×1.5 points of damage.

The description for the Enlarge Spell feat says an enlarged spell has its range doubled. The description also says that a spell whose area or effect is determined by its range (such as bless or a cone spell) has the dimensions of its area or effect increased proportionally. The lightning bolt spell has a range of 100 feet + 10 feet per caster level if it is 5 feet wide. If the area is 10 feet wide, the range is 50 feet + 5 feet per level. If a 6th-level wizard throws an enlarged lightning bolt that is 10 feet wide, is the bolt produced 10 feet wide by 160 feet long or 20 feet wide by 160 feet long? What happens when you use the Empower Spell feat on a lightning bolt? Empower Spell increases all variables by one-half. So how wide and long is an empowered lightning bolt?

The width the caster chooses determines a lightning bolt
spell’s range. If the lightning bolt is enlarged, it has double the range, but the width remains unchanged. So, if a 7th-level wizard casts a enlarged lightning bolt that is 10 feet wide, the lightning bolt’s range would be 170 feet (5 feet x 7=35 feet + 50 feet base range=85 feet, doubled to 170 feet). If the same caster chose a 5-foot bolt, its range would be 340 feet. Note that a 6th-level wizard could not cast an enlarged lightning bolt, because doing so would require a 4th-level spell slot, and a 6thlevel wizard doesn’t have one of those.

The Empower Spell feat only affects randomly variable aspects of a spell. (See the second to the last line of the feat description.) A lightning bolt spell’s range is configurable, but not “variable” for purposes of Empower Spell. A lightning bolt spell’s damage is “variable,” and an empowered lightning bolt deals 1.5 times damage. (Apply the multiplier before rolling saving throws.)

Since an empowered spell affects half again as many targets as its normal version, why doesn’t a 5th-level wizard’s empowered magic missile fire off more than three missiles?

Because the Empower Spell feat increases a spell’s variable, numeric effects. In the case of magic missile, that’s the spell’s damage, not the number of missiles. A spell such as sleep, on the other hand, truly affects a variable number of targets: 2d4 HD worth of creatures. An empowered sleep spell affects 2d4 times 1.5 HD worth of creatures.

[Lance_Botelle]

@DerpCity

If they wanted you to consider the 1d4 and the 1 separately, then they would have worded it along the lines of “roll 1d4 and multiply the result by 1.5 then add 1”.

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying/implying.

[Axe_Edge]

I’m good with the modifier being added to the die roll, then multiplying the sum by 1.5 to get the EMPOWERED result.

Instead of looking for a x or y variable, I need to look at it with a broader lens. The variable is a category, such as “variable damage”, which includes all modifiers.

There has been a lot of discussion over the nearly past 2 decades, which shows how this rule should have been clarified long ago.

Anyway, the portion that I was interested in is if Class Level is used as a modifier. Would the Class Level be is a part of the first calculation? I think it would be. There were a few good discussions about this aspect

There are a few examples elsewhere in the 3.5 rulebooks that show all modifiers being added to a variable die result, then being multiplied.

Of course, only spells with a variable component can be EMPOWERED, and only the portion of the spell that is variable can be EMPOWERED.

It was good to get the ole’books out again.

[DerpCity]

@Lance_Botelle

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying/implying.

Didn’t mean to imply you thought differently, I just wanted to refer back to the wording of Empower Spell in my post and quoted yours since it was the most recent post to have it written out.

[kevL_s]

I think they could have clarified it by saying

If a spell has a dicerolled value it can be Empowered. The dice are rolled with any modifiers then any/all bonuses are added and the total result is multiplied by 1.5

 
 
 
[edit] that makes Empower more powerful than Maximize, in my opinion /shrug

[Akhacha]

Maximise Spell has always been a relatively poor option in terms of pure damage; part of its benefit comes from increased reliability, which is more relevant in PnP, but not necessarily insignificant in NWN2.

If you want a better comparison, it might be better to look at other Cure/Inflict spells. With Empower Spell applied before the level bonus, Light Wounds ends up actually being weaker than Moderate Wounds, despite taking up a spell slot one level higher. Moderate Wounds ends up being equal to Serious Wounds, and Serious Wounds ends up being a tiny bit stronger than Critical Wounds.

On the other hand, with Empower Spell affecting the entirety of the damage, Light Wounds will be more comparable to Serious Wounds, and Moderate Wounds more on par with Critical Wounds, in both cases being weaker at low levels, and slightly stronger at high levels for the Mass versions (due to increase level caps however, the higher tier versions may still pull ahead eventually).

Even then, if used for damage, the empowered spells will still have the saving throw of a spell two levels lower, and as such might very well end up being weaker on average in the end.

[kevL_s]

makes sense.

I seem to recall, however, that Empower on some spells (i forget which) blows Maximize out of the water – and am pretty sure that was what led to my annoyance with the 1.5 multiplier applied to a total ‘variable’ value.

 
 
[edit] confirmed that (feat) Augment Healing is not affected by metamagic in the cure scripts

 
[edit2] a note on the wiki (ongoing controversy)
Healing Domain - grants Empowered cure wounds spells

Appears to increase healing done by 50%, instead of only increasing die rolled by 50%.

For instance Cure Critical Wounds should be increased from 4d8+20 to 6d8+20, or from 52 to 68. what really happens is it increases to 6d8+30, or 78, making cure spells useful at even high levels.

 
sidenote; unless my understanding of statistics is borky, the distribution curve of (6d8) is narrower than (4d8 * 1½) ?

[kevL_s]

ok here’s what a got for HP-determination for the CureWounds line of spells →

// Adjusts the base diceroll 'iVariable' taking into account
// - game difficulty (player only)
// - metamagic
// - Healing Domain power
// - Augment Healing feat
// called by
// - n2f_spellsCure()
// kevL 2024 nov 28 - changed to add casterlevel bonus before metamagic
//                  - fixed to allow clerics with the Healing Domain to
//                    auto-empower Maximized cures
int n2f_GetCureDamageTotal(int iVariable, int iCasterlevelCap, int iMaximized)
{
	int iBonus = GetCasterLevel(_oCaster);
	if (iBonus > iCasterlevelCap)
		iBonus = iCasterlevelCap;


	int bEasy = GetIsObjectValid(GetFactionLeader(_oTarget))
			 && GetGameDifficulty() < GAME_DIFFICULTY_CORE_RULES;

	if (bEasy)
	{
		iVariable = iMaximized + iBonus; // low or normal difficulty is treated as Maximized
	}
	else
		iVariable += iBonus;


	int iMeta = GetMetaMagicFeat();

	if (iMeta == METAMAGIC_MAXIMIZE)
	{
		iVariable = iMaximized + iBonus;

		if (bEasy)
			iVariable += iMaximized; // if low or normal difficulty then base Maximized is doubled
	}

	if (iMeta == METAMAGIC_EMPOWER
		// clerics with Healing Domain
		// - treat standard and Maximized meta as Empowered
		// - note that the NwN wiki states that clerics with Healing Domain
		//   shall empower item-casts also (not implemented)
		|| (GetHasFeat(FEAT_HEALING_DOMAIN_POWER) && !GetIsObjectValid(GetSpellCastItem())))
	{
		iVariable += iVariable / 2;
	}


	// the Augment Healing bonus is NOT affected by metamagic
	if (GetHasFeat(FEAT_AUGMENT_HEALING) && !GetIsObjectValid(GetSpellCastItem()))
	{
		iVariable += GetSpellLevel(_iSpellId) * 2;
	}

	return iVariable;
}

[kevL_s]

the masscure series is quite screwed up. All but MassCureLight were adding the raw casterlevel instead of the capped bonus, and even MassCureLight was adding the raw casterlevel to Maximized vs undead. Also, the bonus was added before Empower vs undead, but after Empower vs non-undead

/etc

 
[edit] in the stock script Inflict Wounds does not empower the bonus …

My policy after our discussion is to empower the diceroll+bonus (but not any additional bonuses like feats). This seems to strike a balance with what I’ve seen in the stock scripts for cure/hurt spells, with the goal of consistency instead of auguries based on the phase of the moon …

[ahag]

There are still bugs with battletide spell and “circle against alignment” if using this spells, then save the game with this spells and after load this save - after resting battletide effects do not completely disappears and “circle against alignment” effects not disappears from companions.

[kevL_s]

here’s the updated Cure, MassCure, Inflict, MassInflict spellscripts …

Rework Cure and Inflict scripts · nwn2fixes/player@ae68ca3 · GitHub

Rework Cure and Inflict scripts by kevL
v.241129
The Cure/MassCure and Inflict/MassInflict spellscripts shall consider the
casterlevel bonus as an integral part of the diceroll, hence affected by Empower
metamagic.
files:
- scripts/spells/curehurt
n2f_curehurt_inc.nss [created]
nw_s0_curcrwn.NSS
nw_s0_curlgtw.NSS
nw_s0_curminw.NSS
nw_s0_curmodw.NSS
nw_s0_curserw.NSS
nw_s0_macurcrit.NSS
nw_s0_macurligt.NSS
nw_s0_macurmod.NSS
nw_s0_macurseri.NSS
nw_s0_mainfcrit.NSS
nw_s0_mainfligt.NSS
nw_s0_mainfmod.NSS
nw_s0_mainfseri.NSS
nw_s2_wpmaclw.NSS
x0_s0_inflict.NSS

 
For those who updated recently, those files can simply be unzipped into your <override>/player-master/base/scripts/spells/curehurt directory (overwrite)

 
@ahag ill look into it if i get the gusto … if someone else wants to peek into it, 'preciated …

[fkirenicus]

How does this play (literally ) with other spell fixes, such as e.g., Reeron’s PNP fixes?

[kevL_s]

i dont know.

Use a duplicate file finder to see how many files conflict …

[fkirenicus]

Fair enough, I’ll test myself. I guess the computer won’t blow up or something…

[kamal]

void main()
{
object oPC = GetFirstPC();
Location lPC = GetLocation(GetComputer(oPC));
CreateEffectAtLocation(lPC, EffectKABOOM);
}