Argh, sorry. I didn’t mean to imply anything. I’m actually going by my own experience; I get kinda freaked out when other people change things around me, most of all how things work that I have to use. x_X It’s always an inconvenience; I’m definitely a creature of rote. If something throws off my routine, I’ll be struggling for the rest of the day. Takes me weeks to adjust to changes, fucked if I know if that’s a sign of stupidity. I’d rather hope it’s not, but, given the sheer amount of incredibly stupid things I’ve said and done, I don’t think I could convincingly argue against that.
Damn it, now you’re making me feel guilty for…something. I’m not sure what, but you’ve managed to do it. At least I can blame the flu for making me sound a tad bitchy. I’ve kicked out my opinions, and I’ll let them stand for what they’re worth. Admittedly, that’s probably not all that much.
Another point in favor of Discourse: There are enough different heart smileys for situations like this.
<- this one is my favourite
Get well soon! The flu sucks. We should murder it until it is dead and gone.
Which fully explains why more people have not tried the Discourse version. I typically just hit my normal bookmark and it takes me to the Drupal version where I’m following multiple conversations.
FWIW, I’ve not been at all impressed with Drupal. While I suspect there is more that can be done with it, we are constrained by what we can reasonably expect of our heroic little ‘staff’. I uploaded a few screen shots last week in what seemed like an endless exercise in repetitious clicking.
I would make the switch despite my preference for the old format. It is the community I love, not the nuts and bolts (well, maybe the nuts). I just do think losing people is a real concern. And I am on the NWN2 side. Which is tiny already. I think one person gone is a noticeable gut punch.
Disclaimer: Also resistant to change even in such cases where I can clearly see the superiority of a new option so in cases where it is not clear I get extra concerned.
A number of people have said that they worry about losing people. I do not understand why they think this would happen. Would someone explain why they think people would desert this site when there would be no change to logging in and no change to the site?
Honestly, I can’t help you with the why. Just seen it happen so many times that I have no doubt it will happen. I would be quite pleased to be wrong on this one.
Edit, since I am limited in how many times I am allowed to post in one thread:
Hyena, you raise some valid points. However, I would suggest that this conversation will be more productive as a discussion rather than an argument. So might i suggest breathing deeply and counting to ten, nursing your favorite beverage or whatever it takes to calm down a bit. We are all ultimately on the same side here in that we want what’s best for the community.
I for one think we should keep the old forum. I don’t like change for change sake, The fact is the new forum hasn’t been very active that should say something in it’s self, Heck I didn’t even notice the new forum anyway. Now I’ve said my peace.
I didn’t notice the new forum until this poll came up.
You appear to be advancing “there hasn’t been much activity on these New Forums” as a reason not to use them. At the same time you admit you were unaware of their presence. Further to that, I know of at least two people who have expressed a feeling that it’s tantamount to a criminal offence to use the New Forums (for anything other than testing to see how they work) because they are not “official and live” yet. One of them, indeed, who was formerly very friendly toward me, has been extremely cold, even hostile, since I used these New Forums for my PHoD World Tour of Africa thread, which I simply could not have put up on the rubbishly non-working Old Forums.
So, combine all those who 1. haven’t been using the New Forums because they didn’t know they existed with 2. all those who had vaguely heard about them but thought they were some high, incomprehensible testbed only for technically proficient types and thus never looked at them with 3. all those who haven’t used the New Forums because they appear to think it is a mortal sin to use Forums not made Official by Holy Invocation and Anointing Oils and you’ve more or less explained a lack of use of the New Forums.
For the most part it is NOT a question of people CHOOSING NOT TO USE the New Forums OR choosing the Old ones for preference, so much as either complete ignorance of the availability of the option or an assumption that it shouldn’t be actively used other than as a testbed until somebody officially announces it official.
If there is an existing option that they can use, most Humans won’t even bother looking around to see if there are alternatives. Let alone make an active choice when apathy can lead.
Rather MORE telling, I would suggest, is that there has been ANY serious use of these “Test Forums” at all whilst the Old Official ones are still there. Rather presupposes a NEED, doesn’t it?
I firmly believe that if the Old Forums here had been closed down and these New Forums had simply been arbitrarily made official more or less as soon as they were first put up as a testbed when the BioWare boards closed, there’d have been barely a murmur about the matter. Yes, we’d have still lost the people who dropped out of sight when BioWare shut their Forums down, but I don’t think it would have made any OTHER very significant difference on its own to those who did stay on. It would all have been part of that change we all had to endure then… It’s only that it’s now happening after a visible passage of time has occurred that the matter is being so widely and vehemently questioned.
Point of fact, I myself would NOT still be around in the Community, even though I’d still be doing all my NWN stuff, because when BioWare closed down their Forums, the Old ones here were all that was left. And they suck. I can’t post images there, I can’t get links to work there. I just wouldn’t have bothered. It was only that these New Forums were raised that I stayed. And I know of at least one person who vanished when the BioWare boards went down precisely because the existing Forums here were crap.
And having two active Forums on one site doing the same job is just insane. Human nature is inherently divisive, there’s no getting away from it. You run two “Live and Official” forums on one site and within a year you’ll have two micro-communities who, for the most part, rarely ever speak to each other and those few who try to exist in both will probably be labelled Quislings and spend most of their time repeating everything they say and do twice in the two different places. Or both Forums will become a seething web of links, back and forth between each other, urging people from one side of the fence to go and look at the answers to the things they’ve just asked which were asked and answered a week earlier on the other side of the fence.
(Note:- The fact that both Forums have already existed side by side for some time without utterly fragmenting the Community is NOT a valid point. These ones have at no time been Official and Live. You announce both as Official and Live and just watch the amusing troop deployments take place and the conflict will begin inside the first month. Probably the first week.)
EASY RECAP for those who CAN’T BE BOTHERED READING LONG RANTS…
1. A lack of much activity on New Forums that are still considered “unofficial and merely for testing” by a Community half of whom don’t know they’re there is NOT a valid argument. For anything.
2. Switching from one Forum to another within the confines of a single site is unlikely to cause anyone at all sane, who’s stuck to this antediluvian Community for as long as we have, to suddenly scream and bail out. Irrational as Humans are.
3. Given that some people, I know I’m not the only one, essentially cannot make use of the Old Forums for Images, Links, etc, they cannot properly take part in the Community, cannot properly enter into the CCC, for example. Thus, NOT switching to these New Forums IS likely to lose Community members. I’m certainly only still bothering because of them. I keep hoping they’ll be “official”. If they don’t become so soon, I imagine there are those who’ll give up waiting.
4. Running two Forums alongside each other in perpetuity will, ultimately, do considerable harm to what’s left of this Community.
5. There is NO fifth thing.
I’ve only just not used the new forums because I was waiting for the actual changeover, at which point I’d use 'em. I have a feeling that’s probably why the forums haven’t been used as much: People waiting for the actual changeover
I put my vote in. Let’s get this happening ASAP
Just noticed Quixal’s EDIT above and thought perhaps I should set the record straight for those who don’t know me so well…
My post was in no way delivered with any anger whatsoever or offensive intent. Very mild frustration motivated me at most. That said, this thread IS an argument.
Any discussion contemplating two or more mutually exclusive options must, by its nature, be defined as an argument. Hopefully a good natured and constructive one. My post was intended as a positive advancement of points I consider valid and which had not been raised previously, though their antithesis had. And, I might add, was delivered in a - for me - very calm and eerily sane manner. I don’t get any calmer than that.
(And if it’s capitalizing words or suddenly putting things in bold that makes you think I was in any way vexed, don’t worry about it. I just like doing that to make large blobs of text look fractionally less putridly uninteresting).
Trust me, you’d KNOW if I was in any way annoyed… you’d have to spend ten minutes wiping the rabid foam off the screen for a start…
In the “set the old forum read-only” case, we’ll also still have the option of going back to the old forum if Discourse ever stops working or it turns out most people hate using it in the long run.
I’d really like to encourage everybody who’s skeptical to take some time to check out the new forum before writing it off as unnecessary. 100% certain that if the situation was reversed, and we’d be used to Discourse and suggesting switching to Drupal, there’d be a resounding no from everyone because of the speed and feature loss. It’d basically be the forum equivalent of going from high-poly 3d models to low-poly 3d models.
Also, question: Why is Quixal limited in how many times they can post in one thread?
Hold up, there’s a “trust level” on the profile pages. Looks like a forum moderator/admin needs to unlock people so they can post repeatedly?
The new forums are not used that much because the old ones are still active and these ones are still labelled as “pending”, which implies that they’re not ready/finished yet, and are merely in a testing phase, no wonder they’re not used as much as the other ones.
I agree that the old forums should just be sent into “archive mode” only for reading, no one’s gonna freak out because they will have to copy and paste, one, maybe two threads they are using for feedback about their mods. And if it’s just a quick question/problem, they can just repost it, it’s not the end of the world.
Re: the trust level thing; there’s an admin setting for it. TL1 is given automatically after viewing 5 posts, 5 threads, and spending 10 minutes browsing this forum. These values are all configurable.
They are meant to prevent spam, but at this point, what with having SSO enabled, I’ve turned it off so every user gets TL1 immediately. If we see spam, we’ll readjust again.
I hope I won’t need to do separate logins to this forum and The Vault (as it is now). Other than that - I’m okay with the new forum look
Thanks for the posting freedom niv. I guess it says a lot that I didn’t meet the low, low threshhold…
To Hyena, as is often the case, I may have misinterpreted tone. Apologies. That said, I do think a debate doesn’t need to be an argument. Though maybe I am just arguing semantics.
As to the actual discussion, I voted my preference but will go with the flow. In the end, I am only a returning community member and only barely felt I had any right to strong opinion anyway. Computer woes have kept me from these games for… longer than I realized. 4ish years, I think…
The reason almost nobody uses it is because… nobody else uses it. I’d prefer to use the new forum, but I don’t because everyone else uses the old forum. And from the poll responses, I’m not alone in that sentiment. It seems to me that setting the old forums to read only would address that issue.
And speaking personally, I’m likely to participate here more if the discussion migrates to the new forums.
EDIT: On that note, I think I’m going to plan from now on to post here exclusively. Changing my bookmark now.
With apologies to #TeamFP,
Not that rambling rodent opinions weigh much, but I’d really rather we switched and made the old forums read-only after a short wrap-up period. I do feel like the admins who will actually have to do the moderation tasks should have some more weight in their opinion, and AFAIK FP’s concerns were never fully addressed.
The core of those concerns seem to revolve around a lack of tight integration with the “vault” section of the vault, eg linking users to projects, having two places now to ban people and remove posts, themes on the vault not applying to the forum, “separation” in general and in some cases double-work. Things like linking to projects seem important for a CC community.
At the same time, while something like not sharing themes is symptomatic of the separation, I don’t personally care if they do… I’d demand A dark theme, but I’m not actually a huge fan of the vault themes anyway =X
There’s also the “if they’re so great, why haven’t you used them” argument from above, hehe. I can’t speak for everyone (and I suppose if they were going to speak, they have ) but I’ve never started a topic on any NWN forums, including the vault. I check these now and again, and reply if there’s a ??? I can answer, but I’d also direct people to ask on the “main” forums for more exposure. Because these were just being tested, and after poking around most are going to go back to what they were doing rather than check two forums. Once the whole process stalled, it went back to being business as usual.
While I don’t really feel that we’ll lose people for sure by switching, with NWN’s history it can’t help but be a concern. At the same time, I know that we’ve lost people when the bioboards went down who couldn’t deal with our existing forums. I’m not going to say, “let’s switch just for PHoD” (:P) but they’re not the only one that fell into the gap between current and old… so I don’t feel like it’s cut and dry there, either.
Lastly (“finally!!”), our existing forums need work. The whole site needs work. So while we’d hope that most changes would minimize “disruption” and just add more functionality/usability, what the latter actually entails varies by user. Proleric’s concerns on the state of our admins are still factors, and when I think about it in terms of, “if niv was caught in a cheetah trap tomorrow and was lost wandering the world in search of his spots, unable to do anything with the vault, which state do I feel like we are better off working from?” and I just think it’s Discourse. It needs some styling (I think there are also a lot of people who don’t realize how versatile Discourse can be, visually speaking) but foundationally it just seems a more solid base to work from. I’d like for more things to be done, but it needs to start somewhere. I’d like us to transition into arguing about themes for it, instead, hehe.
(But having two forums forever is madness!)