I suspect I’m not part of the players you talk about then. I don’t mind getting stuck on something momentarily as long as there are still other things to do. It just happened to me recently in “The Wizard’s Apprentice 2”. Without spoiling anything, I encountered an optional puzzle, couldn’t figure out what to do, made a note in the journal and continued, confident that a solution would later present itself to me. And while I did not encounter any new hints while playing on, I remembered something and an idea came to me, when I wasn’t racking my brain over the puzzle, so I went back and tried it and it worked. I liked it!
What I didn’t like was that for some of the puzzles in “The Wizard’s Apprentice 1”* the hints were either too vague or even misleading, and the items to be found were hidden so well that you couldn’t even spot them with the Highlight button, so it was a real pixel hunt. These puzzles didn’t stop my progress in the game, but as a completionist I wanted to solve them but it just lead to lots of clueless running around, while fighting against the engine at the same time, and in the end, I did search for the solutions online.
There was also an optional dungeon that was pretty hard even on max level; ultimately it made me study and experiment with my spells more until I found a combination that worked better than my usual approach, and that I considered a good thing; but it was still a bit of a slog, so to me this was a border case between “this is too hard” and “this is an interesting challenging that made me think out of the box”.
I can only imagine how hard it is for module authors to strike the right balance. I guess it would be hard already if the audience wasn’t so heterogenic on top of it.
And that might be part of it, that the audience for videogames is now much bigger and more heterogenic than it was in the 90’s. And current AAA games probably cater to the lowest common denominator, thereby creating certain expectations about your games doing the same. But you just can’t please everybody. Better to lose a few players than to compromise your visions and create something that you yourself would find too dull to play.
(Oh, and the reason why I talk about “The Wizard’s Apprentice” so much here is just because these are the first two NWN2 custom modules that I actually played and they are still fresh on my mind. I’ve played a lot of NWN modules, but am only just trying to get into NWN2 custom modules.)
I won’t say much since most of my opinions have been stated. I like a good story mixed with some action. I like different ways of going through a modules. One point, I don’t like playing the “evil” side. Love a thief working for good but can’t play an Assassin. I truly dislike when modules force you to have characters (IE Bishop) in your party that you just detest.
And yet NWN is based upon D&D rules … and so it can be hard for builders (who like and know the rule set) to understand when another player appears to assume certain rules are “new” when (in fact) they are the norm. i.e. Admittedly, for a D&D RPG rather than an adaption. However, regardless of background, why does one rule (included or not in a game) suddenly become a game-breaker?
We must beg to differ … Boss fights in the way they implement it should have been a warning for me.
These are mechanics issues, which should be a different topic ideally.
My point is, even if they differ, they do exist. A player should not “not expect” them by default and then struggle with gameplay because of it. There are other aspects too, like spell books and holy books for recovering spells.
I thought about that . . . I wonder if a “Thieves World” type of collaboration could occur. Have common areas and NPCs, but allow mod makers create areas and adventures within the common areas. Kind of like a campaign with adventures, rather than re-inventing the whole thing over and over.
That all sounds pretty good, but the one thing I did not like and that made the experience too frustrating to me was the bonfire system. I’m not a big fan of boss battles, but I can deal with re-trying them a couple of times; not so much with being set back all the way to the last bonfire and having to waste several minutes on reaching the boss again before I can die another time. This is the part for me that makes it not hard, but frustrating; I don’t have the patience for that much backtracking and repetition, and the fear of this punishment is stressing me out too much. But that’s getting quite off-topic, just couldn’t help commenting on it …
It’s been some time since I played The Wizard’s Apprentice, but I remember those modules to be among the top 5 modules I’ve ever played for NWN2. They were extremely good! I have a vague memory of the last installment (the ending) being not as good as the first though. And there’s a bunch of really excellent modules for NWN1 like Sanctum of the Archmage and Tales of Arterra. These are the kinds of modules I really enjoy. I also loved The Darkening Sky Prologue and The Dark Avenger for NWN2 (I really liked the unique-ness of that module). I don’t remember ever have to get accustomed to any special rules or such in all those modules. They were just pure fun. So that’s my cup of tea, I guess.
Still, in MOTB there were special rules for soul-eating(? LOL, sorry I just can’t remember much of that anymore), and even if that was a bit frustrating at times, I still liked it, so…
i don’t think that this is a pure mechanics issue. it feeds directly into the gameplay, and solving everything through dialogue instead of utilizing the core gameplay as a whole feels cheep. there’s nothing wrong with dialogue, but then i could also play a visual novel instead of a crpg. fallout is a prime example here - in fallout 1 you have to activate your skill and click on the object to look what happens. this encourages experimentation, exploration and leads to little surprises in later play throughs.
that’s vancian casting which always felt a little out of place in crpgs - especially for those with no knowledge of d&d. i mean, it’s also not the best at tables. personally i like a little twist on magic like in dungeon crawl classic. cast your spell above a certain dc and don’t lose it. later editions of d&d acknowledged that a wizard without spells and whole day in front of him ain’t the most fun to play. especially 5e has powerful cantrips which can be cast without loss.
I am not dismissing this as a potential issue, as I agree with you that mechanics plays a very big part in an enjoyment of a game. My point for this post, however, is that I believe I have noticed a trend in players being less able to deal with RPG gameplay due to not being so flexible in their ability to deal with situations thrown at them by the builder.
If the problem is a player not being able to carry out the act due to a mechanics issue, that is one thing, but if a player does not even acknowledge a path is open to them because it does not fit with their expectations, then that is something else. The former (mechanics) may be able to be dealt with by a builder, but the latter requires better gameplay from the player and cannot be addressed by a builder.
I agree that the system has it’s drawbacks, but it’s still a valid system. My point being, if a fighter loses their sword, they don’t automatically have t replaced do they? And yet, I have seen players suggesting they can cast spells without a magic book. Why?That has never been the rules, except “dumbed” down versions have been implemented and so players now expect that and appear disgruntled if they now have to have such books. Where does it end … Press “K” to kill the monster and move on?
and now an old gamer would say that you’re not used to ancient game design. back in the day there were not even bonfires to save your progress. you died? that’s sad. please try again from the very beginning
those bonfires were also not the far away from bosses. there often was a shortcut to be found and most of the opponents between you and the boss entrance could be easily outmaneuvered. but yes, some corners were really really harsh.
I could try, sure. Which one(s)? Currently I’m still in the middle of TWA2 though, and I hear it’s quite long, so it might be a while. And I can be a bit picky, just as a warning. I tried 2-3 other high rated NWN2 modules before TWA and was already put off by minor things in the intros.
You did that one very experimental module for NWN, btw, didn’t you? Soul Shaker, I think it was called? I tried that back then and was very impressed but at the time also a bit too lazy to get into the completely new rule system. But I should give it another try some day.
And I noticed TWA2 is using a map system that you created.
Yes, Soul Shaker was my NWN module, and it was quite a innovation at the time. I completely changed the gameplay due to being on another plane of existence … and it was a homage to System Shock 2 … If you know that game, then you will know half the rules to my own Soul Shaker.
As for my NWN2 module, it’s The Scroll, found here …
I would appreciate all feedback good or bad, as that is how I improve. It has undergone a lot of play-testing and updates as I continue to work on module 2.
I’m actually an old gamer myself, and I really don’t miss those days. I’m glad that some mechanics from the past were left behind. Especially since they probably had more to do with technical restrictions or squeezing coins out of the player’s pockets than with good game design.
But I was never really patient with those games, not even when I was still younger. I’m just not competitive enough, a story is more interesting to me than a high score or owning other players, and too much repetition kills a story for me.
is that something you scripted for your module? not being able to cast a spell without a particular item in your characters inventory? while i would like this idea i can also see why others argue against its implementation. it’s quite simulationism and heavily depends on the overall setting of the module played. the majority of players also don’t like item breaking.
ps: not having a spellbook in d&d doesn’t mean that you can’t cast spells. what you prepared for the day can be cast through speaking, gesturing and focus. without a spellbook you can’t prepare spells come morning.
Let me give you one example of the kind of concern I have, which I hope will not put you off giving my module a try … (link in last post to you above).
FOOD: One gaming aspect in my module is that if you do not eat, then you get tired, based upon D&D rules. On first encounter, this sometimes shocks a player, as it was not something in the original NWN game.
Yet, it adds an element to the game because TIME also matters in my module. Again, many modules do not include this mechanic in them. Now, the player is having to consider time and place in the world … especially as some aspects may be affected by time of day.
Some players will react negatively to this, and panic about how to manage it … and yet, if they sit back and “play along”, it is managed really easily, especially as the clerics can cast “Create Food” at later levels and there is even a scroll found a little later that also helps manage the situation. But, player’s first reaction generally sets their tone of approach to the module and “give up”, even though it is quite “normal” from an RPG D&D style.
The easiest solution - Go to the tavern and pay to rest. That’s it! in fact, many players would normally do this in the course of play anyway, but because it is now a “concern”, it appears to add pressure to some players who do not appear to have the capability of being able to address it within the course of their game. Rather than see it as one of those rules that makes sense in the course of an adventurer’s life (which I have made easy to implement), they see it as a curse back to the old days … many players even don’t like Fog of War … It’s those kind of differences in the differing style of play from players that made me start this post.
Some people play games for the challenge or the gameplay, others don’t care about the combat but enjoy a good story, and many, probably most others are somewhere in between. I don’t think there’s a “right” way. Personally, I enjoy NWN2’s gameplay to an extent and like the occasional challenge , but I also think there are much better systems for a computer game (Dragon Age Origins is a good example as far as classic RPG systems go). There are even games I’ve finished several times in the hardest difficulty, but which I’ve also played on easy when I couldn’t be bothered with the combat, either because it hadn’t aged well, or because I just didn’t feel like it.
Following on that, I find your example of Dark Souls a bit ironic. There’s a lot more to it than just being a difficult game, and even though I love it as it is, I wouldn’t be opposed to an optional easy mode for people who might be interested in playing it but find it too hard or frustrating to enjoy. Like you said, there’s a fine line between challenging and boring.
And as far as fan-made content like NWN2 modules go? Well, if you’re making one for fun, then make it as you’d like to play it. Firstly, the game has a difficulty slider, and secondly, you’re not gonna please everyone either way.
Um, I actually did that quite a bit in the first Baldur’s Gate when I got bored of the combat …
(Not in BG2 though, which I liked much better.)
I see. Well, food and time management aren’t my favorite game mechanics either, but it would depend on how it’s implemented and whether it adds anything interesting to the game. I would try to roll with it and see how it evolves, as long as it doesn’t bother me too much. I did play through e.g. Eye of the Beholder back then, and I did play through MOTB which also had a somewhat stressing mechanic, but I did not mind it that much. I also get along with TWA2 so far, which mostly replaces resting with drinking potions. As long as I don’t get the feeling I could easily maneuver myself into a no win situation, it might be fine.
As an avid explorer, I do like the fog of war in games like Baldur’s Gate and such though!
Totally agree with this. There are so many approaches to a game, what you like and don’t like. If you as a creator is true to yourself, then I think it will be better than thinking to please everybody, because you’re never going to do that. I actually think it will harm your module if you try to please everyone. If you however are a professional developer making a AAA game, that’s another matter entirely. Then you might want to consider pleasing as many as possible. But then there are many more people involved in the developing process instead of just one person.
Boss fights in the way they implement it should have been a warning for me.
I tried 2-3 other high rated NWN2 modules before TWA and was already put off by minor things in the intros.
