UMD modification

I have no idea what you just said, except the talent VS hard work part. And I’m pretty sure Charisma doesn’t count for your actual courage. That seems pretty dumb. How’s a charismatic person any braver than a soldier? In fact, a person with high Charisma can still be a coward yet cunning, like a snake.

It does not count indeed and that precisely is my point. It should, yet it doesn’t.

Here is simple deductive reasoning:
Premise 1: To be brave (ability to overcome fear), person should have strong personality.
Premise 2: Charisma as stat describes strenght of personality (aside from other things, that it also describes).
Conclusion: Therefore to be brave person must have high charisma stat.

Wisdom may allow thee to come to conclusion, that thou do not deserve ill treatment at thy work, but it is charisma, what will allow thee to tell it to thy boss, when he will gaze angrily at thee (intimidation roll or freightful presense).

When making up DnD rules, Wizards of the Coast decided otherwise and my point is, that they made a mistake.

well, you can either play by the rules or make your own up.

I disagree Qara screaming out about setting something on fire is not a neutral trait it is something an evil character may say. This is more in line with CE not CN. Saying how would you like to set on fire is not the response you should here from someone that is CN . NE may say something like that if your character or npc is trying to get something. Elanee is the Druid from the NWN 2 OC. Linu is the Cleric and Tomi is the rouge In the NWN 1 OC. Someone with a High wisdom should not be running into battle like an idiot. I spent 22 years in the military that kind of reaction gets people killed. Running into a fight with abandon compromises everybody which is why I don’t play NWN 1 very often anymore. Unlike NWN 2 you can’t turn the AI off in NWN 1. That is why when play NWN 2 I turn the AI off and micro manage all the npc. Sorry for derailing the topic again folks, but I felt an explanation was in order.


Your example is based on a flawed premise: bravery does not require a strong personality. A very meek person can also prove highly courageous at the right time. Strong personality is what allows you to capture the attention of a room and win followers. It doesn’t make you brave – there are plenty of examples of strong personas that are also, perhaps secretly, cowards.


I see what thou mean, but it seems, that we define “strong personalty” differently then.

Thou seem to define it as ability to win sympathy of other people. I would argue, that it would not be complete since in addition to what thou sayed, “strong personality” is an ability to resist and overcome own emotions as well as to accept consequences of own actions. (So, being “meek” does not mean having low charisma)

Strong person is not only the one, who is able to convince others in ther trustworthiness, but also is the one, who encounters many obstacles and dilemmas, but always finds an answer, that he is ready to be responsible for and lets nothing stop him. Bravery is a natural result of it.

I agree with the OP, the fact that UMD uses Charisma instead of Intelligence is simply a gameplay device to reinforce the role of bards (and to a lesser extent, rogues) as jack of all trades, master of none.
If we go by the name of the ability (and what it does), it should clearly be an Intellect based skill available to Wizards and scholarly classes only (Like Knowledge domain Clerics, Arcane Scholar PRC, Druids with some restrictions, ecc…)
In the end it’s based on Charisma “because the rule book said so” and that’s it.


Um, no. To overcome fear, you need to have willpower, and that has nothing with your strength of personality. Just because you’re capable of jumping into the fray without hesitation doesn’t mean you won’t stutter and be nervous in front of an politically important figure or that you’re able to sway people to your cause, whatever it may be.

Also, could you stop with the "thou"s and "thee"s? It seriously makes you sound condescending.

If that something isn’t alive, it’s not evil to want to set it on fire, but chaotic. If it is alive, and if it’s an enemy, that’s still not evil. Unless the enemy is actually good-aligned. Evil means having malevolent, malicious intent, and you mean to harm people, whether or not they deserve it. Qara has a list of people she hates but wouldn’t go out of her way to kill them unless they push her too far. If they do, she has no qualms about burning them to ashes. To be Chaotic means you don’t adhere to what people think is socially acceptable behavior, not morally. That’s where good and evil come into play.

And to be Neutral means that you’re not as inclined to help innocents as someone that’s Good. You care more for yourself than others, but you don’t have any inclination to harm them and would typically avoid a bloodbath if possible. Evil means that you couldn’t care less who dies, so long you get your way.

Also, the A.I. sucks, so it can’t speak for the NPCs’ behavior in battle.

What makes it worse is that Rogues don’t necessarily need high Charisma in the first place. They’re mostly about Sneak Attacks and Rogue stuff, I.E. disarming traps and picking locks and pockets, things that require Dexterity or Intelligence. Social graces are secondary. Bards focus more on Charisma than on either.

That’s only because most modules are of the stab and loot variety. A swindler, for example, has much use for a high charisma.


Successfully using something that isn’t designed for you to use would require a certain degree of puzzle solving skills and perhaps hand skills. The kind of skills someone who understands disabling traps or pick pocketing might have. It fits the attitude of a rogue because rogues are people who want to see what they can get away with. But to allow success you also have to have some ability when it comes to persuasion, which is a facet of Charisma. If it was based solely on Intelligence and Dexterity then every rogue would be good at it, which doesn’t make sense. This also gives rogues a chance to dabble in magic that is beyond them - and there are examples of rogues from literature - like the Gray Mouser - doing exactly that. A better mechanic than dual-classing Magic-User/Thief was in 2e, especially if it is just so that the character can use items rather than casting spells.


[…] willpower, and that has nothing with your strength of personality

If by thy understanding, there is no obvious and direct connection, then my reasoning is indeed in vain.

Also, could you stop with the "thou"s and "thee"s? It seriously makes you sound condescending.

Acknowledged, considered, denied.

1 Like

So what, I can give a speech to a scroll and it’ll be convinced to let me use it? Well, that checks out.

Cool, then you can get out, door’s over there.

Discussions about characteristics rarely end well. Meh, it’s just a game.


i notice it gets worse if they can’t actually do anything about it – I call it “yapter”.

1 Like

If you die in the game, you die in real life.

Of all the random things I’d ever seen said, this one takes the cake.

1 Like

As a modder, though, I can’t help but give the real answer to this thread.

There ya go, with this in override folder UMD will be based on INT rather than CHA.